Bounces are killing me

Discussion in 'Noob Central' started by mrgodlike, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    So I don't have issues inboxing gmail, aol, or yahoo (trying to get mail monitor app to fucking work so that I can see deliverability to cables but that shit isn't working)....No issues w/ spam complaints or unsubs either.

    My main issue is that even after I take my lists through hygieneagent and upload bounces from prior mailings into DA..... but bounces are killing me still (~6%) to the point that my esp accounts are throttling me.

    Anything you guys recommend to use to get rid of or clean lists even further? Something like briteverify or leadspend?

    Edit: I always take the bounces from the prior mailings and upload it and clean it out of the list/add to suppression list. I run everything through HA when i get up and once when I go to bed. Also do a final bounce cleaning via upload to supp list.

    Mailing litereally 23k/day on sendgrid and have mailed a total of 94,666 before throttling/suspension review on sendgrid and mailed about 33.5k on elastic before throttling so about 38k got 'throttle bounced' by elastic (didn't count as hurting my rep there, just wasn't going to send those that's all).

    If it isn't ridiculously apparent already, i'm new as fuck to mailing.....and I thought inboxing would be the hard part...lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  2. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    What type of bounces, exactly?

    If you're being bounced due to spam content, etc., removing the addresses won't help. You need to back off on that isp to work on your ip reputation, content, whatnot.

    For invalid addresses, you can try mailing new data on one set of ips first to remove/identify most of those bounces and then mail to that remaining data from a different set of ips that you are trying to build reputation on.

    Also, if you're on an ESP sharing ips blocks with other mailers, you always have the potential for someone else messing up your deliveries due to their unclean data or lazy practices.

    Hope this helps!
     
  3. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    No, bounces are for invalids (emails DNE/disabled/user doesn't have account here)

    So guessing only option is to just clean and mail separately.

    Thanks for the input Shannon!
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  4. arbydar

    arbydar VIP

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    yep, that's what you gotta do
     
  5. noobking

    noobking Member

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    you'd better use a separate range to filter HB out or you can use email data validation service

    it depends on you
     
  6. mx10

    mx10 VIP

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    you cant rely on any 3rd party to remove your bounces for you period, you have to get your bounces off yourself elsewhere

    however, im surprised they are flipping out over a 6% bounce rate, that is quite normal/reasonable

    people filling out forms fuck up their email up 10% of the time commonly, or put in a bogus address, etc
     
  7. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    10%? For real? damn. And from what I've been taught, bounces shouldn't be more than like 0.3% after a while, and inboxing the big 3/4 hasn't even been an issue at the moment., mainly why I was concerned about 6%. Didn't know 10% was a commonplace. Would I be able to send <50k /day on an IP specifically for HB cleaning? I was assuming that sendgrid and elastic would keep pretty accurate HB records so that I could just download the list whenever I needed to, upload it in DA's running suppression list and then just grow that list like that.
     
  8. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    The % is only going to go down if you are mailing to clean data and continually removing whatever new bounces crop up (email addresses change hands/come and go). If you keep adding new/uncleaned data to the master list each day and use the same ips you're trying to improve rep on to mail to it, you're not making any headway.

    In a way, the same goes for complainers. You can scrub using someone else's complainer list but that doesn't mean your remaining recipients are going to be receptive to your offers. You still need to make sure those additional unsubscribes are removed from the master list, too.

    good luck!:tee:
     
  9. DoldGigga

    DoldGigga VIP

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    Who told you that bounces should be 0.3%? There are no hard figures or industry standards for mailing which is what makes it both profitable and full of pitfalls. If your list is generating only 6% bounces on an initial mailing then I'd say you're doing alright.

    Email lists have a fairly consistent churn rate that's related to their total size. Bigger list means more churn, which is email addresses dying off. If you mail the list in its entirety at least 2-3 times per week the % of bounces will go down and stay low, often below 1%, as long as you are removing the bad records from your list. I would not rely on a third party for managing bounces or FBLs.
     
  10. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    Ok, don't rely on 3rd party.... so is it ok to use IPs that came w/ one of my Dedis? And if so, I take it I've gotta do a whole bunch of FBL/Whitelisting signing up and stuff? Will read into it and appreciate the info Dold.

    Ya I planned on mailing - taking bounces from mail to clean list, then add a new portion of data to the cleaned list and mail that new combined list to dilute bounce rate... Rinse and repeat basically while I warmed my IP/Rep on Sendgrid and Elastic. Wanted this to accomplish a few things - A list of deliverables with sub 1% bounces that I'd just keep adding deliverables to.

    Then figure out how to segment openers and clickers properly. Is a month worth of data, mailing the data every day for a month basically, statistically significant to quantify a list of openers and clickers from deliverables? On top of that, do you guys use p202 or cpvlab to further track for converters? If so, do you segment out converters in their own categories (IE - email/zip sub converters, auto insurance, bizop lead gen, bizop trial, bizop cc, diet, skin, etc....)


    BTW
    I think I found out why I got so many bounces...first though, what SG support told me.



    Now as for why, well I heard that aged domains were a bit better to use for sending than newer domains. I have a few 10-17 yr old domains so figured I'd switch my new domain out for an aged one.

    Forgot that I did this during the beginning of a larger send (in comparison to what I've been sending)........Basically I is smrt kid.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  11. DoldGigga

    DoldGigga VIP

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    If the IP is clean as it pertains to the domains you are sending mail to then there's no reason not to use it. One IP is enough for a list that is 50K.

    You do need to sign up for FBLs from the places that offer it. Doing so will typically result in relaxed volume restrictions.

    Bounces should be handled at SMTP time. You will want to be removing 5xx bounces from your list...and that is the part you need to maintain control over. Using a third party service to "manage" this doesn't necessarily give you an accurate depiction of what's going on and they typically have their own policies that they apply that will supersede any of your own...for example they may expect you to remove certain 4xx bounces even though it is ridiculous.

    Wouldn't worry about the bounces so much. Focus on the keeping the FBL low...if the FBL is too low you're probably junking or being ghosted.

    Yes. Would not bother applying any type of segmentation to openers. I'm not a fan of bloated metrics...just the basics. CTR is the main thing I pay attention to and it tells you all you need to know.

    It's more productive to spend your efforts on making effective creatives and seeking out offers that have a broad appeal than it is to cut your list up into pieces.

    I have not observed the domain to be an issue so long as it doesn't end up on any kind of domain block list. I've been using the same domains for ages without any loss of performance...in fact, it may be better to "develop" a small handful of domains rather than going through thousands per year.
     
  12. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    Just would like to clarify, is that 50k list that sends need to be spread throughout the month, a list of 50k that can be sent to each day, 50k per day (meaning day 1 could be mailing to records 1-50k, then day 2 - 50,001-100k, etc....).

    Also, Do sequential IPs hurt/help each other if the IPs next to it have a good or bad rep? IPs are clean right now as I've never mailed from them and have only been used for display camps. (mxtoolbox says they're good).


    Will do, thanks.

    So far the throttle based bounces weren't removed. These are what the bounces are mainly, with 550 5.1.1 being the vast majority. The 550 5.7.1 were throttle based bounces and haven't been removed since it was showing up as spam because of my mistake:

    Code:
    December 11, 2012 - 11:27 am
    550 5.1.1 The email account that you tried to reach does not exist. Please try double-checking the recipient's email address for typos or unnecessary spaces. Learn more at http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?answer=6596 x29si28807600yhd.106
    Code:
    December 9, 2012 - 11:16 pm
    Delete
    550 5.2.1 The email account that you tried to reach is disabled. n1si22419879yhj.76


    K will read up on that. No clue how to quantify that at the moment.


    So then just clickers/deliverables are your metrics outside of segmenting out GI, TLD, Cables? And if you do have any sort of segmenting is there a generalized guideline that you'd say is deemed statistically significant in order to quantify # of clickers and/or whatever segmenting you do from a list?

    If that doesn't make sense I apologize. Kinda sorting through quite a bit of info in regards to segmentation. When it comes down to it, I know I'll develop my own guidelines, but wouldn't mind some sort of strong baseline.

    Ok I figured as much... was just coming from a display mindset.

    Is it better to tie 1 domain to 1 IP and age that combo/keep them clean? Or are IPs not as important and focus on aging domains. I too don't like the idea of thousands of domains and rotating or churn and burn. Unsure of the IP situation though as I see IPs are very cheap. Why not rent 500-1k at a time and rotate through them?

    Looking at DaMadHatters sig:

    GUARANTEED CLEAN $1-2/IP (TLD) | $3/IP (GI) | $4/IP (VIRGIN) - VARY BY TERM/SUBNET

    THREE MONTH RENTAL for a ONE MONTH PRICE!!! | MONTHLY DATA SCRUBBING 4 FREE!!

    TLD IP's /20 ($5k), /19 ($10k), /18...

    Wtf makes an IP TLD, GI, Cable, Virgin, etc? And why the price difference between them. If IPs are that cheap, why not grab a /20 like is being offered above and just rotate your sends through them to mitigate risk and slowly warm them up? Is that just noob theory? Just wondering as it seems like the best way to dilute bounces/spam complaints for a reasonable price/month.



    Thanks again for the answers Dold. Gives me a good number of things to read up on.
     
  13. DoldGigga

    DoldGigga VIP

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    You will probably run into throttling issues if you try to send 50K from a single IP in one day without any prior sending history. Some domains are more lenient than others and the amount of FBLs you generate will affect this so it's really a trial-and-error type of deal.

    People do it both ways. There are people who mail their entire list daily and have the resources to do so with list sizes in the 10M plus range, and there are people who may do something like mail a portion of their list each day. That's something you can experiment with to determine the best results.

    All I am saying is that you can push 50K volume daily per IP quite reliably as long as you send consistently. Consistency is the operative word there. If you send 50K one day, then wait a few, send again...then again the next day it's erratic and a good way to get the IP on some automated block or grey list.

    Absolutely, at least as it pertains to mailing TLDs. If you have a /24 with one bad IP in its range it's enough to cause issues with the entire range of IPs. If you have a /20 block (or even larger) and mail from a few IPs within various /24s in that block, you can end up getting the entire /20 blocked due to a few problem IPs. This has happened before and even if the block is removed, there's a lingering hit to the reputation.

    I think there is some benefit to sharing IP space with mailers that have solid reputation policies because, to a limited extent, the reverse of the above is also true.

    This is why I said it's better to manage these yourself. You can program the sending app to disregard these 5xx messages which are inappropriate and should be 4xx. Hotmail loves to issue 5xx messages for issues that should be 4xx, such as throttling. They are a bunch of faggots.

    You may see a message like this even if the email account is still valid. You can test that by sending an individual email from some random gmail or hotmail account.


    Yep. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? CTR tells you the effectiveness of your creative as it pertains to generating interest. On the other side, your EPCs let you gauge the quality of your message.

    I would not use the same IP block for GI, if you want to mail that at all, as I do for TLDs. I would not have a problem mailing TLDs and top tier ISPs from the same block.

    I would not segregate the list beyond what I stated above. Think about it, if you had a KFC coupon and an email list full of black people you'd get a solid 47% CTR...but why be racist and assume that those same black people would not also be interested in a biz-opp? Not all of them are on welfare.

    You can have any number of IPs per domain, just keep it consistent. If you start out with 20 IPs for a domain, don't add or remove IPs later down the line. Keep it at 20 for that domain and if you need more set up another domain later on.

    I believe that's what we in the business refer to as advertising. The difference in IPs is the same as the difference between paying $5 or $10 for a cup of coffee - it's the same shit so the amount you pay is inversely proportional to how smart you are.

    You can absolutely grab a /20 and mail from it successfully - why not? The only issue would be what I mentioned before with a few bad IPs being enough to sink the entire /20.

    If your goal is to amass a large quantity of IPs it's probably better to diversify them and not have them on the same block. Personally, I would determine the average daily volume I want to send and budget my IP space acquisitions around that.

    If you're doing it right you won't need to dilute bounces or FBL notifications...and your theory is flawed because you're assuming that the domains you are mailing will be unable to figure out what you're doing (even though you are undoubtedly the first one who thought of this).
     
  14. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    lol


    Gotcha... basically why I want to get as many bad theories out as possible since paid traffic mentality definitely seems to screw w/ what a proper mailing mindset should be.


    Thanks again Dold... apparently I can't rep you until I spread more rep
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  15. BigEricBug

    BigEricBug VIP

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    Just when I though you were playing nice and being constructive......YIKES...couldn't u make a nicer analogy???" :261:
     
  16. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    Look at it as strictly getting a point across and let go of judgement....His posts have been nothing short of amazing in regards to helpful content. Not sure how he isn't being constructive IMO.

    But to each his own.
     
  17. BigEricBug

    BigEricBug VIP

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    Guess u missed the racist black sterotype with KFC and the unemployment comment as well. Holy shit.LOL

    Understand the point, it is constructive, just tasteless and racist from where I sit.
     
  18. mrgodlike

    mrgodlike New Member

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    I read it... don't really believe it's coming from a truly racist viewpoint, but just jokingly stated.
    The way I look at it; Words are meaningless & only have the meaning you give them.

    LOL holy digression...don't wanna get too off topic but I understand what you're saying. Just forget about it and focus on the positives.
     
  19. DoldGigga

    DoldGigga VIP

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    You're the real racist here because you're basically saying that black people wouldn't appreciate a KFC a coupon since they already got food stamps.
     
  20. BigEricBug

    BigEricBug VIP

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    Nice try on the twist....how do u know i am not black there Doldy Locks?

    Many of us are employed too, as email marketers.
     

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