I know most of you are new to the email biz so I was hoping some "elders" can offer some advice on what the going rate for data is? i.e Rented, managed, purchased. Manged data can range from 50/50 split (gross) or 45/55 split going to either mailer or data partner, depending on the quality of the data. Always get a test sample of the actual data, if the data partner claims the data has been scrubbed and mailed and then 40% of the mail HB (hard bounces) then you may have some leverage in negotiating a better rate, since you may have to go through an extra scrub process.
I wouldn't take a rev share deal unless the split was 60/40 my way. Think about it: you put up your servers, your IPs, your cost for cleaning the data (presuming your not mailing it raw) and then they want half or more on the split??? fuck that. Maybe it's just me, or because I'm awesome and everybody loves me but I've never NOT gotten this split when I asked for it. :240:
Indeed and agreed, especially if you are covering the full cost of the servers and mailing platform. I've normally done 50/50 on net, i.e server and mailing cost split. Doesn't make any sense to mail if your not even covering costs.
I agree with both both of you. You (mailers) do all the hard work .Why shouldnt you get a little more. For me, it really comes down to $$$$$ amount at the end of the month, not the %. Our smallest rev-share(12%) brings in 90% of our income. *If you do ask for a rev-share. especially a 60/40, be sure to pay your data guy on time. Otherwsie your data feeds WILL get shut off. Data providers like myself, love to chase money.
The key is to work into your agreement that the revenue split is minus all mailing costs. A lot of data owners we work with are okay with this. I know some that won't be, but honestly what are the odds that they will audit you.
I think that really depends on the data/source. Mailers don't actually do "all" the work, in my case I spend thousands of dollars a day getting quality data, not to mention the years and millions of dollars in traffic to figure out how to generate buyers and top quality leads in our verticals. Also, we all know that the majority of rev share mailers are taking more cookies out of the jar then they have agreed to. I'm willing to bet my checks last month were many thousands of dollars lighter than they really generated, we just consider that the cost of doing business when you are giving someone else a valuable resource. If you have a data supplier with questionable/shitty data, then I would totally agree that offering 50/50 is absurd and the mailer is doing all the work/taking all the risk in that case. So like anything, there is no one answer and it is definitely a case by case basis. I've never paid mailing costs on any of our rev shares and 50/50 is one hell of a deal for the mailers we supply data to in my mind.
I agree on the case-by-case basis. However, I'm not in full agreement with a rev-share before expenses, since if a mailer can not sustain and run it's infrastructure then the relationship may not have much longevity. As for your acquiring of "quality data", how exactly do you quantify the data quality i.e cc buys, first page submits. How old is the data, has it been scrubbed, mailed etc??? Mailers have a lot more to loose if data goes bad, bad rep, listing, shut downs ....etc. all which lead us to not making any money, in return you make no money. What are your risks besides the "assumed" lighter checks you receive on a monthly basis? And believe me, I know some shifty mailers who only pay out a 1/3 of what they make but not all of us are like that. :stickyman:
Lucky for you the ROI of email marketing can enable you to spend thousands a day and still turn a profit. So you are not creating "joint" accounts on the networks where the mailer will be running offers so you can monitor the progress and make sure you're getting the share that was agreed upon? I wouldn't trust anyone enough NOT to rely on third party tracking. Also, the smart data managers will seek out quality over quantity. Not only does it preserve the intrinsic value of your data; it translates to bigger paydays for the mailer and for you. People who have sent me me data in the past always assure me that it's "legit", "opt in", "verified" etc but no, it is not. Most of the data out there seems to be coming from those stupid ass "email submit" type offers or co-reg...both of which are relatively low on the scale of quality. I'd be ecstatic if I could find a data supplier who could deliver the volume I need AND maintain a decent level of quality.
I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to pick that shit apart. Pretty inflammatory to post up something like that in a mailer forum where one might want to cultivate some new business. Calling most rev share mailers crooks...not the wisest of words chosen to say the least. Nice job Digga, I instantly thought "why not joint account access", done it myself....seems like a fairly dumb thing NOT to do. That is if you thought your checks were "thousands of dollars lighter..." :17:
You da man Rob! Hahah This is why I prefer to sell data. Im already paranoid from all the chronic I smoke. The last thing I need is to keep worrying about if someone's ripping me off every month. Especially thousands a month. If I do set up a rev-share, I either require loggin info or a deposit which is worked off from my cut each month. Also for the company to test it 1st. If its something you think we can make $$$$'s together great! If you don't think its gonna work, no hard feelings.
I don't understand all this obliviousness when it comes to keeping your revshare publishers/partners on their toes. How hard is it to seed the data first before you revshare it out? How hard is it to check these seeds, and confirm the CD#/login id of the network logins are the account that YOU SHOULD ALSO HAVE LOGIN ACCESS to. Hint: Get an http redirect url scanner which follows every redirect. If you do revshare and the other guy refuses to create/clone a new network acct for you AND give you access, then move the fuck on. Otherwise, there should be full transparency and you can account for 99% of the revenues if you really want to. A serious revshare provider should have serious seeds.. at least one for every major domain so you can make sure your data isn't being carved like a turkey on Thanksgiving, piece by piece.
Seeds aren't fool proof, there have been many times when the seeds don't get a single email, like they get scrubbed out (maybe im doing it wrong). Then of course I've had mailers get cute by pulling a random file and mailing separately on that which won't hit most of the seeds, and maybe not any at all depending on the size of the file. Maybe I don't use enough seeds, maybe I use too many, really I just don't have the time to play seed cop all fucking day, I have money to make and it's pretty well known that plenty of mailers find ways to skim off the top. There are plenty of good mailers, that's not what I was saying obviously to anyone that paid attention. My point is that guys like myself that own offers and have buyer data or solid demographics that buy tons of shit deserve the full 50% and guys that have shitty co-reg data, they probably deserve less. The whole point was its case by case and at the end of the day, both parties agree to what they agree to. My perspective is from being on both sides. I'm thrilled to have guys who can mail the stuff we can't put into icontact and mail ourselves but unless im the unluckiest guy in the world, over the last few years my experience with a lot of mailers we've sent test files to is that they should thank their lucky stars I wasn't asking for more money. Most were completely lazy and took weeks to even get to a file A lot were terrible marketers though they may have been great at getting emails inboxed, their ad copy and offer selection was terrible Had a few that I know were still mailing data and even selling it when I opted out of our list management agreement and told them to delete my data. And of course there are some great ones and I continue to try and find new ones every month. Obviously we all have to make money, but if I give you file of 250k skin or diet pill buyers, that's going to earn thousands of dollars a month for even a mediocre mailer and in that case I think 50/50 is more than fair right?
If you can find a mailer doing 50/50 that can inbox your data, then good on you. Any mailer I know doesn't touch a 50/50 anymore, because of how many times they get burnt on data. Getting buyer data really isn't that hard. If a mailer has a good month, the network they do the most with will usually approach them with revshare deals for lots of stuff they either run in house, or if they have personal deals with advertisers. So the data is there. While your data may be gold, the fact that you can't just toss it into an ESP and instantly make money makes me think it's not as clean as you claim. If mailing was easy, data brokers wouldn't need mailers. But it's not, and they do. They've already made money off the frontend, so backend money from mailing just extends their ROI, and basically there is NOTHING to lose, since they've already made a positive ROI. Conning a mailer into a 50/50 after the fact seems a little dubious, but more power to you I guess. The mailer on the other hand can lose IPs that he whitelisted because of bad data, or buyer data can still be filled with screamers once you get even a little off the vertical they bought into. Or if they have a bad experience with whatever they bought / signed up for from you, they tend to take it out on the mailer too. You already have their money if it's buyer data, so you wanting half the share when the mailer is basically taking all the risk, is a bit much if you ask me. Personally I'm always north of 60%, and usually 70% or more, but ehh.
Glad you don't think to highly of yourself or your data. Since you like to assume a lot of shit I guess I will too. I'd assume you're data is just as shitty as the next guys and I'd have to clean the fuck out of it just to make it worth my time, but you'd still want 50% of the gross for doing basically 0% of the work to make the data mailable.
Whoa ..lets not bust out the rulers again. I understand this is a very touchy "hot" topic in terms of who doing more work, ...blah blah blah .. I believe anyway you spin this, mailers and data sellers will NEVER see eye-to-eye, mailers will want more vice-versa. Therefore, before this becomes a war, I think we just need to agree that the best thing to do is speak to your data rep, (whatever they call themselves) and come up with an agreement that works best for the both of you. In the end, your both in it to make money and if one party can't trust the other or your not satisfied then there is no point in dealing with one another. My only advice is ask around and if a deal is too good to be true, then be smart and question it. Period, POINT FINAL!!!
There are rare instances where 50/50 is fair who knows he may be one of the rare exceptions. I've just burnt to many times with GREAT DATA. It seems like every time I've done a deal for "the best stuff" it turns out it's not nearly as fresh as they promised and by the time it goes through my cleaning process I've purged out 50%+ of the data. I've had a few instances where it was 30%, but it was few and far between. It's gotten to the point I can't trust data providers farther than I can throw them.
Yes and I don't disagree with you and at the end of the day, data providers are not mailers and NO two mailers are alike. Its happened to me before, where a data partner wanted to charge me for 100k in records for his "buyer data" upon upload I lost 50% and then another 30% was lost upon hitting send, lets just say that relationship didn't last too long. I get very wary of data providers that are not willing to work with me on a reasonable term, or "data-pushers" if it seem like all they want is a quick sale then F$$k that, too much at risk. I know there isn't much loyalty in this business but I'll only deal with those who are reasonable and who understand ALL aspects of mailing. Tall order I know but its how I roll.
The only time a 50/50 would make sense is if that single mailer is the only one mailing it. Unfortunately, I've had advertisers / data brokers enter into this arrangement, and then think that it's not possible to figure out that they are reselling it to other people even when they shouldn't be. I caught 2 people doing this after being in exclusive arrangements. So this sort of garbage can go in both directions as well. The headaches of someone not willing to give more than 50% is no longer worth it, especially with the amount of good data there is out there now. But I guess if someone is desperate for data, 50/50 makes sense, heh.
